INT: You're semi-retired and? 

HG: Right. As time goes on, I'm more and more retired until like the last year or so, I didn't do anything at all, and welcoming that, 'cause I loved--the happiest time of my life was living in Ireland. Absolutely the happiest. And we moved back, moved to Connecticut and I would come into town every once in a while and have lunch with friends, and that's when I met Jack Rollins on the street. And how Dave [David Letterman] hired me, how we did that morning show [THE DAVID LETTERMAN SHOW], and one of the... probably the most exciting, satisfying money things that ever happened to me was at the end of the morning show, it went off and it got an Emmy award that year, Daytime Emmy and it was well thought of, 'cause people would stop what they were doing to watch it around the building. Although the numbers were bad, at NBC we would go to meetings with the NBC production people, the vice-president in charge of morning shows and they would give us advice on how to make the show better, like Dave should do more cooking segments. [LAUGH] And we would just listen in and then we'd go out and be rolling on the floor laughing, because it was so out of touch with anything Dave wanted to do. And we would do exactly what we wanted to do, annoy the people at Rockefeller Center. You know, the whole building is owned by; so anything we did, had to do with kind of breaking some kind of Rockefeller Center rule, using the elevators for races, or to… I remember we did one thing that was on the morning show. We went up early and we taped a segment where people were sitting around on the roof and Dave was walking around explaining why it was so important, we had like a phony garden with papayas growing and the thing that--that was okay with Rockefeller Center police but there was one where we had a fellow sitting sunning himself with a thing, and Dave waved to him, and he kind of like that, waved and then he lost his balance and fell off the roof. Well it was a setback, you know, so it looked like the edge of the roof and he fell and we had mattresses and he fell on that. And when they saw that they rushed to whoever's in charge of the Rockefeller police, and they showed up in the control room and I was kind of running this stuff, before we went on the air, 'cause it was live, we did this and it was going to be live, it was going to be rolled into the show. And they said "You can't put that on the air." I said, "Why?" "You can't. We'll have people coming up here jumping off the building. This is a very, very irresponsible, dangerous thing you're doing here, and you are not going to do it." And I said, "Okay. What you object to is the fellow falling off the building and that's at the end, I'll get out long before that, it's too long anyway, so I'll get out long before that happens." "Okay, okay. With that understanding you can run that piece." And they were standing right in back of me, like three men in black suits, and when we ran it, I didn't tell Dave any of this, and when we ran it, the point where I should be fading out, I turned around to talk to somebody and that scene went on the air. [INT: You are wicked.] And they screamed, and I said "Oh I'm sorry! I should have gotten it." Was on the air. So that, it's only an illustration of, that was kind of one of the driving forces of the show, was trying to get around, very kid-like, the Rockefeller Center people, going out onto the rink in the middle of the summer with ice skates when all the tables are set up, that kind of thing. And Dave loved that.

INT: I have to ask a question here relative to that. Clearly there's a generational difference between you and the people you're working with at this point. [HG: Absolutely.] Okay, but you seem to completely get it. You seem to completely tune in with them, and you seem to get great pleasure in these moments. Why? 

HG: I think it's a way of, I think I always see things as a 22 year old. Even my politics are the politics of a 22 year old. I find George W. Bush just abysmal, he's just a twerp that I can't even look at but it's not from a kind of a grandfatherly; I'm going to be 78 in January. So everybody I worked with on THE LETTERMAN SHOW [THE DAVID LETTERMAN SHOW] were older than my own children. [INT: Yes, that's my point, yet you found communication simpatico instantly, which bonded you to them at a time when they were not having a success, and carried you… And I just remember reading when they moved to the LATE NIGHT SHOW [LATE NIGHT WITH DAVID LETTERMAN], I remember reading that there was no question that everybody that was going to come from the morning show; I mean all the key players were going to go. Everybody was waiting.] To go to CBS you mean? [INT: No.] Oh that's right, yeah. [INT: The question, I'm not sure there was an answer, but it's an amazing--] [OVERLAP] It is a fact that I could be, and I don't think of myself as childish; I see myself as a person who's able to be childish, when it's going to be funny, and I think of myself really as a serious person. But you can kind of compartmentalize your life I find.

HG: But the wonderful story for me was at the end of this morning show [THE DAVID LETTERMAN SHOW], and things… We went off the air and Dave [David Letterman] of course thought he would never work again. His career was finished, he was devastated by being cancelled. I was secretly happy that it was going off; I didn't want to work any more. But they came to me and said, "We're paying Dave to stand by for another show and we'd like you to do it and we will pay you so much a week, if you agree not to work for anybody else, and be ready." Now here's someone who's retired, didn't want to work, and I'm getting now a check for a year, a week's salary every year for not doing anything, so it was the most delicious money I've ever made. And I was almost disappointed when Dave called me and said "Hal, we got a slot, we're gonna take over from Tom--[INT: Synder] Tom Snyder." Then I knew I'd have to go back to work. So there we're through the morning show, a year off with no work, 'cause I didn't do any other shows. I might have done some commercials. But I was retired and I was happy, fixing up, my wife and I redid three houses and then built a house and we were really into nest building, which I find very satisfying. And I like to travel a lot, and I like to read, so it was a perfect life and then this imposition of another show, but it became fun almost immediately, working with Dave was fun. It was tense because Dave was never happy. Never happy with anything he ever did. [INT: But you were used to this now. You've already spent a lot of time working with this kind of star. This genius. This kind of genius.] Yeah. And my relationship with Dave was always a non-professional relationship, 'cause whatever we did about the show itself was done on the air. And it was almost a standing rule, never to talk about the show when we weren't on the air. So that our conversations were about stacking firewood or talking about places we'd been. Kind of, you know, almost dormitory bullshit. And that was our relationship and then we'd get on the air and then things would happen that we wanted almost kind of like a, intuitively. And I think Dave needs that, I think that's one of the; I think he has to see things happen, without his control. Although everything has to be perfect, but I think down deep he would like to have things happen without any purpose. [INT: I'm going to just pick on that word intuitively, because that's the feeling that I always got when I watched the show, which was often. Is that there was a almost musical language going on between Dave and the support structure. First at NBC, which must have been hard, because it was not designed for him, and then later on it got an opportunity to be totally designed. And that's very rare. I consider that to be very rare, an unusual situation where there's a direct line of mental connection between the person sitting in front of the camera, and the person responsible for the machine, which in 1982 we're talking about, whenever it was, '82--]

HG: '82 [1982] we started the prime time show [LATE NIGHT WITH DAVID LETTERMAN]. [INT: It was still pretty clunky. Pretty clunky with TK-47s and roll-ins.] Yeah, even the handhelds were heavy. [INT: Yeah, roll-ins and just the five second waits and all that stuff, but none of that ever seemed to bother you, you mastered that.] Of course, that was part of the show. [INT: But you were comfortable in that environment, you had been there for so long. So that was, I just wanted--it's really more a statement and a compliment, that there was always this sense of connection and trust, which is unusual, rare and unusual.] Yeah, I think Dave [David Letterman], I was kind of, I became like Dave and I don't think he'd become like me, because Dave is Dave, there's a very powerful set of molecules holding that guy together. But yeah, I think we both laughed at the same things. Like exaggerate, I love to exaggerate, I mean I always get in trouble because I'm always saying something that's so outrageous and then people believe me. And Dave is also good at that. And it's kind of fun. And also Dave loves to be teased in a kind of a… I mean we would always have meetings, I remember every year we'd have a meeting about where we're going to travel the show, although he hated traveling the show, going places. And I would always, it was a lame joke, I thought it was funny; everybody would give an idea where they would like to see it, and I would say "Let's take the show to Lourdes [Lourdes, France]." And Dave would always then stop and get phony pissed off and say, "God damn it Gurnee, can't you ever look at anything without your sarcasm?" He would then read me out, but he knew that was a funny idea, that we would go to Lourdes, 'cause the show was so bad. [INT: Even I got it.] But a lot of people said, "Lourdes? Wouldn't that be somber and kind of uncomfortable?" I said, "No, this is what the show needs. We need divine intervention here." So we did--

HG: And I remember one of the great moments for me was, we had one of the Bookers, it's going to be one of those name-chasing events. [INT: Robert Morton?] No, this is a Booker who came on and was at the end of the NBC period, and I'd came over to CBS and he's famous for having worked with Nixon [Richard M. Nixon] in and… Who's the gal who's now on GOOD MORNING AMERICA? The blonde news... she's married to... [INT: GOOD MORNING AMERICA, there so many of them. It's not Paula Zahn, she moved.] She was on, she had a network big time blonde, she was married to... Nichols. Mike Nichols. [INT: Oh, Diane Sawyer.] Dian Sawyer. [INT: See, I need the literary here, Dian Sawyer. Yes, keep--alright, anyway.] So Diane Sawyer worked for the Nixons, and my friend, and I can't think of his name, also went out there and worked with Nixon, kind of like, getting his autobiography together. So he was wonderful, very serious little man and he would come in and we would have a meeting and Dave [David Letterman] would go like this and this man would come over and sit on Dave's lap. And I thought this was probably one of the funniest things I'd ever seen. [INT: This is small like Stu Smiley small? It's that kind of small?] About the same size but this fellow had gravitas as they like to say ‘cause he had been with Nixon, but with a great sense of humor, wonderful, wonderful man. He's a Writer and every once in a while you see him on television. But I thought that was such a great image and then Dave, nothing was ever set; people would come in and he would like that, and I just loved that image. And I remember saying to Dave once, we went around, any questions, any comments. And I said, "Yes Dave, why does he get to sit on your lap and no one else?" And then Dave gave a long speech on why, but that's Dave. Dave can take a really completely ridiculous situation and turn it into something that people looking on would say, "He's really serious about it." [INT: Well I think that's what makes the show genius, is that they do the same thing over and over again, and then he does that little variation, and of course what your realize right away is that the production can move quickly. So if he decides, let's take the horse from the first segment or whatever they call them and the production assistant from the third segment and put them together at the end of the show, it will happen in real time. And that's pretty amazing when they can do that. Anything he asks for, they do.] It gets done, yeah.

INT: So we’re now at--you’re now, you've gone back to work. [HG: Now we're into the NBC late night show [LATE NIGHT WITH DAVID LETTERMAN].] Right, and you’re, clearly they don't have to worry about the production part of it, because you got that under control. 

HG: And we also have a set of really smart Writers, who get better and better; they are the people who come off the SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE show, Jim Downey becomes a head Writer, we get Max Pross and, well he did a lot of stuff for SEINFELD, wonderful Writers. What's his name? [INT: Well, there's Mark O’Donnell--Steve O'Donnell was one of them.] Steve was there for years. But they're all top notch, smart Writers. All from Harvard [Harvard University] it seems, a lot of them from Harvard and if there are ones that don't come from Harvard, even City College, they write like Harvard people. And it's really great stuff and then two or three years later they all drift off and we have to find new Writers to do the same thing. So there was a period, I think it was a golden period, like the first three or four years, with some really wonderful things being done. And the fellow who created Krusty the clown for THE SIMPSONS, created that role right on the show. He came out dressed as a clown, he was Krusty the clown. Morose, very unhappy clown. That's why I love seeing it; THE SIMPSONS is my favorite show. I can’t understand why people… Most of my friends don't think it's funny; they don't get it. Those ugly little characters? I said, "Its the most brilliant writing going on." [INT: All it is is funny and because it's a cartoon, they don't have to worry about anybody getting old or fat they can just, they can do anything they want, without having to contrive it. They just do it.] Yeah, and it's also, because it's a cartoon they can touch on subjects on necrophilia and they can make it a joke, you know? [INT: Absolutely. One popped by the other day, they were talking about SEX AND THE CITY and Bart or someone says, “You mean, you mean…” I'm paraphrasing but, "You mean the show where all these homosexual men are portrayed as women." It just went by and that was that, and of course that's totally true.] They capture it; they capture cultural things that are going on, in any field. And I love the fact that Mrs. Simpson, you know what her maiden name is? [INT: Well, I know it's Bouvier.] Bouvier, yeah. I thought that was, searching around for a name, what a great idea. [INT: If you want to have some fun, watch THE BONNIE HUNT SHOW, because Bonnie Hunt, who they've tried to make shows for years with Bonnie Hunt, she's doing a show where it's simple, and they do a lot of scenes that are right on the improv edge, and that improv edge is the Dave edge, because that's why he loves Bonnie Hunt so much. And it's worth it to watch this 22-minute sitcom, for one scene, that's clearly not written out word-for-word. And they shoot it on high-def cameras so instead of being locked in with that terrible clunky, you know, they can actually get it covered right away, and so the stuff's incredibly fresh and it's the first time I've seen anything that even approaches the humor on Dave [David Letterman], 'cause I gave up on her too. I gave up on her too.] Is this ABC? Okay. [INT: I gave up on her too, but suddenly there's, what everybody sees in her, which was never captured finely; I hope it catches on.]

INT: So, we're doing this [LATE NIGHT WITH DAVID LETTERMAN] now, now it's becoming a hit, a social phenomenon and it's going on and on. 

HG: People dismissed it at first, except very young people. High school kids mostly. They're the ones who got their parents to watch. And now people are actually, I was ashamed to tell people what I was doing at first. 'Cause I had worked in television, just finished working with David Frost [LAUGH] and most of my friends said, "What is this guy doing? Wasn’t he just a snot nosed kid?" I said, "Listen to what he's saying; see what's going on. This is different. This is different and it's very funny." And then people who kind of ridiculed what I was doing, eight years later are saying, "Jeez Gurnee, how did you luck into such, you know you're in the middle of a social phenomena, a whole new..." And I said, "Yes, that sounds really lucky." [LAUGH] Yeah so it becomes acceptable. But you said something before that, the 6-A, we were in 6-A; 6-B became a news studio, and we used that, we used to go across the hall and take pictures of them and actually they barred the doors, we would try to get through the doors and this was taped, but it would go on the air that way. They loved it at first, being on the air outside of the news hour, but then after a while they got sick of it. We made them sick of them being on the air, and so there was this tension built up, where they would have a security guard to keep us…and we would get the security guard to look down the hall and rush in. It was wonderful stuff.

INT: Well I remember the classic when GE [General Electric] bought RCA and you did that thing [LATE NIGHT WITH DAVID LETTERMAN] where you went--[HG: Went over with the flowers.] Over with the flowers, and it was clearly directed. I mean you're even in the shot in the background standing there, directing it. I mean it was not, take some cameras out and cover it; it was something, a greater thinking going on. 

HG: Oh yeah, but you know that's something Dave [David Letterman] didn't want to do, that was Steve O'Donnell's idea. And we got out of the van and we had, I remember Steve taking out the prop flowers and then explaining to Dave what we're going to do, and he says, "Sounds like they're just gonna throw us out." And we all, Steve and I were going, "Duh!" [LAUGH] So we went in the door and it worked out exactly as we had hoped. Dave actually wanted it to, I think he thought he was going to charm them, it would be funny, that he would take this behemoth and we would control it, or he would tame it. But no, this guy; we couldn't have cast a better security man. [INT: It was perfect. That handshake, it's like a legendary...] Like that and then taking it away, taking it away. I said, “My god,” I was so thrilled. [INT: I mean that's as pure as it gets. It's absolutely perfect.] But getting back to this thing of studios, so I think that actually 6-A is a better venue for the show than the Ed Sullivan Theatre, in retrospect. I think what happens, we went over, and I'll tell you that story, it's a good story and it makes me look very good. But having a choice, I would say staying in 6-A would have been, or maybe go to 8-H so you could still be in that building; that building was wonderful for us. Broadway was good, and 54th Street was good, and then those shops along there, worked very well. We were very lucky in that, but I think it was being confined in that narrow, long, narrow radio studio, that made Dave--'cause Dave really hates organization. He hates the whole structure, that's why when GE took over it just reinforced his whole kind of contempt for the suited people who take themselves seriously and so he was good at that. And I think we kind of missed that because there was nobody at CBS to play that role. He could get mad at the upper echelons for not having the right lead-ins and all, but there was nobody there on a constant basis to remind us that we were doing things we shouldn't be doing. And I think that that studio was good for that. [INT: Yeah, it was working...]

INT: Listen, Ernie Kovacs did his genius work in Philadelphia with two cameras, so I agree; however, there was a moment of transition and I'm just going to set it up by saying that I thought, as a David Letterman fan, not a watcher every night, although my wife does, but I thought, they're gonna screw up now. Now they're gonna screw up. There isn't a person in that organization that's actually capable of taking that show and moving it to a different venue in a different situation; he's surrounded by people that he's comfortable with, but there's not a competent person, technically. And that's just my personal feeling; I didn't think about, that it would be you. It didn't occur to me. I'm just telling the truth. It's just that they are not technical people, not going to figure this out. And then the show goes on the air and it's everything and I had heard afterwards that it was basically you, that they let you do it. 

HG: Well, no, it was an absence--[INT: An absence? Right.]--of power that gave. You know, what happened is that we started looking, we're through at NBC, Dave is pissed off. He's not going to get THE TONIGHT SHOW, he should have gotten THE TONIGHT SHOW, he earned THE TONIGHT SHOW, but the battle between the East Coast and West Coast, the West coast won. And so reluctantly he's going to CBS. But that's not the tradition, that's not the NBC of Johnny Carson. Johnny Carson's his great hero. [INT: Which is very important.] And he felt that he was entitled to fill those shoes. And so looking for a, he wanted… The key was, he was moving from 12:30, he was getting 11:30. And that meant a lot to him. And that'll come up later, so let me tell the stories that he... We started looking at theaters around New York, and studios. First the emphasis is on studios, and we looked through the broadcast center at CBS, and they have one nice big studio that we could turn into, it would be like twice the size of 6-A. And it could have been, with sets and all, it could have been turned into a wonderful spot for that show [LATE SHOW WITH DAVID LETTERMAN]. But it's not available, there are soaps in it and they're not going to give it up and we're offered something just as good. Well, I don't know what the number of the studio is now, I looked at it and I didn't like it, I didn't like where it is; it's on 57th Street, 10th Avenue, way at the other end of town. Nothing going on, nothing. Car dealerships across the street, dark at night. [INT: And it's not going to change. It's not going to get better.] It's going to be like NBC owning in a bad location. [INT: It's going to be like Television City, it's going to be out in the middle of nowhere.]

HG: But Dave [David Letterman] is ready to take this, he's been sold a bill of goods by CBS, by what was his name? [INT: It wasn't Leslie Moonves?] No, it was long before him. A tremendous salesman, he's head of Sony. Howard Stringer. Wonderful guy, we got along very well, he had a great sense of humor, and he would show us through the office buildings and show us where our offices would be, and I remember Howard saying, we looked in and I opened the blinds, the blinds were closed and we looked out, and we're looking out over the rooftops towards the Hudson. And so, everybody is looking out and then it's very quiet and Howard says, "Well, it isn't Paris." [LAUGH] It was a great line. So I knew that I had somebody who would understand what I'm talking about, so we looked around, we looked at different theaters, even looked at the old Hudson Theater where THE TONIGHT SHOW originated. That was available. Dreadful. No good now. And then CBS says, really, and Dave hasn't made up his mind. He's thinking, he'd like to be in New York although he hates New York at the time. He would be happier living in California. Let's give the new CBS studios a shot. Let's take a look at it. So I went out with Bob, Bob Borden, and we looked at it, and Bob is very keen on one of the two brand new studios. [INT: This is out in Television City?] Television City, the great new big ones. Surrounded with acres and acres of blacktop. And that night Bob calls Dave and tells him what he thinks, he likes it. And then later on Dave calls me on his cell phone, he's on his way home, and he asks me, what I thought. And I remember telling him, I said "Dave it's kind of like being at NASA. It's a great big building, you can almost see where the shuttle could be assembled and it could be stood on its end, and there's enough parking probably for the whole space program." And that's how I felt, it was sterile. Who are you gonna make fun of? I didn't say that, that's what I told him. [INT: What are you, going to go to the Farmer's Market and-] Yeah, do the old shit that we did 30 years before, talk to people from Iowa. And we went back and then Dave saw the photographs and he then decided he didn't want to do it in California, he thought it would be important to stay in New York. And I'd been selling New York right along. I said, "This is where people you can talk to; you can make fun of people here. You can't make fun of people out there." [INT: 'Cause they're not from there.] They're not from there, and also, there is something sad about the people. Here, you make fun of an Italian baker and he'll give it back to you. [INT: Yeah, or Vietnamese deli owner.] It's fun, they don't know you as much. And it's not a one industry town. This is not a television town or a radio town, it's not even a financial town, it's every town. But, so Dave...

HG: So we start looking again [for LATE SHOW WITH DAVID LETTERMAN]. And we looked at the Ed Sullivan Theater. We looked at it when we were looking at the CBS studios, and Dave [David Letterman] walked in and walked out immediately and said, "God. Why are they showing us shit like this?" We went around and looked at some other stuff. And then, we had almost agreed that it would be that second studio at the center. And I went over with, 'cause they told me how many square feet it is and it's twice as big as where we were, so I went over with a floor plan of 6-A, with Cathy Anchors who was our set designer. Brilliant British woman, she died a couple of years ago. [INT: It's still the most perfect set.] Well, she was great. And we went over and we looked at it. We laid down the ground plans and the figures were all screwed up. They measured like from one wall back into like a wet area, and so it was only slightly larger than 6-A. Maybe by a couple hundred feet. [INT: By the time you built in the whole audience structure.] And the audience was all, not even fixed seating like 6-A, it was all ramps and folding seats. [INT: So they could take it out and use it on weekends.] Right, and they would do that. And on the way back- [INT: So this is you and another adult and there's no-] That's right, we're kind of seeing what the reality is, where the other people are taking what CBS is telling them. So on the way back I said, "Cathy let's take a look at the Ed Sullivan Theatre again, 'cause I liked that theater, and I worked there and that's a good theater. And we went in and we looked at it, and I sit on the stage, and you could see that we took out all that built up platforming, went back to almost the proscenium line. We stored the seats, put some sort of barrier in the upper balcony, and Polshek [James Polshek], the architect, his guys came up with some great ideas. [INT: But once you got rid of the control room and all that.] And then I went back with the ground plan and sat down with Dave and Bob [Bob Borden] who was the Executive Producer and Peter Lassally, who was the Executive Producer, and told them about this. I know Peter and Bob were very upset with me. Because they had made up their mind. [INT: Well, they wanted to go live in Malibu.] Well, no this is gonna be now New York, but it was going to be at the CBS; "At least we have support there, you know the Ed Sullivan Theatre, it's in a crummy part of town." I said, "It's Broadway. That's not a crummy part, it's Broadway!" So, Dave is now listening to me. And Bob and Peter Lassally are listening because Dave's listening. They're not convinced, and so I said, "Come back to the theater and I can show you what I have in mind." So we go back with Howard, Howard Stringer. And we stand on the stage and I start selling this to Dave, saying, "Look-" But he says, "It's a barn, Hal. How can I do comedy to people that are a quarter of a mile away?" I said, "That'll disappear. Put in a barrier, all these seats come out; you'll be talking to people eight feet away from you.

INT: Can you just say, you mentioned it and I let it go by, the barrier is that he doesn't see the balcony? He just sees the orchestra [at the Ed Sullivan Theater]? 

HG: He [David Letterman] doesn't want to be in a cavernous space [for LATE SHOW WITH DAVID LETTERMAN]. He wants an intimacy. [INT: There's something you built there?] Well, in solving the problem of this, when we got together with the architects, they came off these ideas of these enormous canvas sails, it was almost like the Hollywood Bowl, you know, where they had these big, I think it's a parabolic curve that is good for sound and it, so it goes from the, there were three balconies so it was like the second, the edge of the second balcony. So it's just the first balcony that's still intact; everything beyond that is covered, so that when you look up at it, you feel... it's a theater but it's almost intimate. and they did that, and one of the barriers was, there was a concrete skirt along the first balcony, so that people had to look over this and then Dave doing his monologue, couldn't see the people, and so I got convinced and this came up later on, I convinced him that they would spend like $60,000 to take out that concrete and put in a very thin, metal that echoed the design of the other balconies, so that Dave could see the people up. So anyway, I'm jumping ahead. So we're standing on the edge of the stage looking and Howard Stringer's there, and I'm really selling on this, 'cause I really believe and I think this would be exciting. There's a proscenium of one of the historic theaters in New York, the Hammerstein Theatre. It's designed for musicals; it's not for plays it's for musicals, Hammerstein, 1927 said "I want to build the biggest house in New York." And he did. [INT: As a full fly gallery and a very large building.] Enormous fly, wings that don't end; it's a big stage. So it would be enough room to put a band on there and Dave's home base and all, and keep almost the same relationship that he had back in 6-A, slightly expanded. And then Dave said, "I don't know." Then we walked out. And I said, "You walk out the door, Broadway." And at that point, Stringer came up to me and says, "You know Hal, I think this'll really work." After that it became Stringer's idea. [LAUGH] But I don't blame him, but that's what these guys do for a living. And so Dave says, "I don't know, I don't know." And then two days later I'm in my office getting ready for the show and Bob [Bob Borden] comes by and says, "Oh Hal, Dave's decided on the Ed Sullivan Theatre." And that was it. And then that's when I was directing and the next day I went in to Peter [Peter Lassally] and Bob and said, "You know, I'm willing to go along as long as I'm a Producer. 'Cause I don't think I can do this, just no one's gonna listen to me as the Director, I have to be a Producer." And they said, "Well no Hal, I mean the Director that's the most important job." I said, "All right then, I'm not going to go." So I got a Producers credit. [INT: But the Producer's credit was not something, I'm just curious, but the Producer's credit was so you'd have the power to get what you wanted done?] Well yeah, when you have a meeting with the architects or the CBS people especially, the tradition of the television Director, there's no weight there, they're not going to take me seriously if I'm supervising Producer, so that it was decided and it was decided on a conversation I had with Dave. He says, "Hal you know, I'm really concerned about us, we're going from 12:30 to 11:30. Is this going to look like 11:30?" And I said, "No, it's going to look like eight o'clock." And he smiled and he says "Okay." [INT: That's a wonderful answer.] Yeah. [INT: And all he seemed to do was put on the bottom half of the suit from a design point of view.] Yeah, he kept the sneakers and all, it was a little daunting for him because it was lot more headroom, but from the opening night, people just said, "This is the new Dave." They equated Dave's performance with the surrounding, and with this kind of a grander but still funny, kind of like celebrating New York, we're here in New York, we're taking a historic theater. We're adding to a cultural bank of New York City, and I think he got credit for that. And it was a thrilling thing to do.

INT: Were you able to draw upon talent outside of the CBS technical facilities? Were you able to get lighting designers? 

HG: Yeah, we had; actually CBS I have to admit that CBS, if I had to start a show, and had to kind of choose... I shouldn't say this, because I mean I worked with NBC for so many years, but they were equal if not better, technically prepared to mount a show like this. Most of the backup came from CBS. And the fellow who was assigned, he was an executive president, who worked for the Tisch [NYU Tisch School of the Arts] boys, he moved around with them, and he came over and he was despised by a lot of people at CBS and by the people on our show. But he was tough, he was a money guy, but also once he saw that Dave [David Letterman] trusted me, he never talked to the other people, he would either talk to Dave or myself. So when I finally when I did retire and I left, Dave had them make a plaque and dedicated the theatre to me. So there's a plaque in the theatre saying "Dedicated to Hal Gurnee and his foresight." Anyway, so that, I would say that's probably the most satisfying thing that I did in the business. 'Cause I love buildings, it was something I loved. And construction has always been kind of an opportunity rather than a burden. I always say, jeez it's so wonderful to make something out of nothing. [INT: I get the sense also that, I'm not hearing any stories about, once Dave committed and trusted you, you were allowed what I think is almost an unheard of authority in terms of laying out how it was to be done.] Yeah, but it was. I was surprised at how they left me alone, but that was a summer where they were building the theatre, re-doing the theatre, every day was a disaster, a new question. We would have to go out on the stage and Peter [Peter Lassally] and Bob [Bob Borden], they would say, "Hal, I can't see the people... How can I..." I said, "But most of the people are out there right in front of you, you don't have to play to the balcony." "If I don't see them, that's the only people I'm going to be thinking about." So that's when I thought it would be good to take out that barrier, and put in a wrought-iron open railing. And when I showed him pictures I had to make photographs of that, and so he would see the legs and, they almost were there rather than behind the barrier. And when I showed Dave photographs, mock photographs what it would look with, he says, "Okay." But I remember other people on the staff saying, looking at me and going, "What have you gotten us into?" I wasn't, until we got on the air and people started coming, it was like, what the fuck have you done? [INT: But you don't sound like you were concerned about it.] No, I knew it was going to be great.

INT: Were you able to introduce any things that you'd always wanted in terms of support materials? Technical support? I've never been to this theatre, so I only look at it on television. 

HG: Well, one of the things we got with the... CBS got one of the best real estate deals anybody's gotten. They paid, I think it was three and a half or four million dollars for the theatre and the office building [Ed Sullivan Theater]. Now this is a ten-story office building that goes with it, and it was a wreck, it was like a building full of [INAUDIBLE], it was crummy and but that came with it and while doing the theatre we did the office buildings, and we were right there, you walked downstairs and into the theatre and there was room for editing bays and it was all complete, it was like our own little world. Never having to rely on the broadcast center, which I liked. I think that we were able to, I was able to put a continuous track across the balcony and have a camera up there that would track along any place I wanted to with a remote control. We had cameras all over the place, we were restored. We had to take down all the glass, the stained glass that was built into the proscenium arch, for windows and we replaced our own windows and put New York's skyline in the background, which kind of gave a continuity to what the show used to be. So it was all, I think the thing that I appreciate most, it was all over the place; you got a wide shot, it all worked. There is the band and the background is this wonderful rococo work and then through the rococo work are modern windows looking out onto New York. And of course we had to deal with the landmarks commission, and there was a ferocious gal who was in charge of that, I can't think of her name. But Polshek and I would have meetings with them, and then tell them exactly why we had to do that and they realized, and we had to store the glass at great expense, in case it was ever put back in. And we really restored the building. And then there was the control room in the back of the house that was torn out where I punched Joe Cates, I mean there's a great continuity for me. [INT: When the theatre was just a rental theatre I did one little quick project out of there and was fascinated with what a derelict space it was, but how magnificent it was as a building.] They spent a lot of money but I think they'll always get their money out of that place. [INT: I recall that it has become the classic theatre, in that whatever happens it will always be this amazing television space, because you truly can do anything on that stage.] You can, it's a very big stage and it could be, you know if it's cleaned out you could do anything. But I think another story that says something about Dave [David Letterman] which I appreciate, is that because CBS bought the building, and; it always was rented, even when Ed Sullivan was in there. [INT: Yeah, it was the 54th Street Theatre, I think; before it was the Ed Sullivan Theatre it was the 54th Street Theatre.] At the very beginning it was the Hammerstein. And that became a nightclub and it has a wonderful history. Billy Rose in the depression had a nightclub there, because there wasn't enough, they had more theatre space then they needed, so almost immediately became a tremendous drag to the Hammerstein family. Actually Jimmy Hammerstein was a good friend of mine, he died a couple of years ago, and he was thrilled that this was being done. And so there was a question about what the theatre was going to be called, I believe that there was no legal bind to keep the name Ed Sullivan Theatre, and it could have been called something else and Dave insisted that it stay the Ed Sullivan Theatre, which I think was very smart. I think it's a wonderful idea, 'cause it kind of shows his sensitivity to the history of the business, and that he would support that, even though it was another network.

INT: Seems to have, for someone who is sort of totally focused on this one thing, he [David Letterman] seems to have good gut instincts, and you seem to have tapped into them beautifully. 

HG: I think, yeah. Underneath not very far, he's a very decent guy. He is a decent man. He's insane, he's got a lot of hangups, like we're all insane, in a way, but I think deep down, he's sensitive, he's a sensitive person. [INT: Well I mean, look what he did, look what he was able to do after September 11th. He was the first one to really be able to pull himself together and stand up and speak and-] Let's get on, yeah. [INT: And I thought that was more telling than it appeared to be, because it showed that he was on top of his game in many ways.] Well that's why he should have gotten THE TONIGHT SHOW. That was really his, and I think, 'cause over the years, if we did talk about the business, I would always talk about returning to a talk show, a real talk show, where people tune in to hear what's going on and meet fascinating people. You could be funny; I thought we had done the sketches and all and other people could to that, but I think Jack was unique in being able to do that kind of show, I don't know if Dave could do it, but I think he could; there was a time when he could have done it.

INT: I'd be curious to hear your experience after you retired, you came back and did a pilot, or something with THE MAN SHOW, which was much more, the modern experience. Certainly from a Director's point of view, and I'd just be curious if there's anything you could share. I seriously doubt that you were able to enjoy the experience. 

HG: Well, a lot of work has to do with the people you're working with. And Daniel Kellison was one of, he started off as a receptionist on the show, and I always liked Daniel; and so when the show went off he would call me every once in a while to do consulting. [INT: Right, so you were called in based on a previous relationship?] Yeah, and he just thought I could help the show. And I was called in to do the Chris Rock pilot [THE CHRIS ROCK SHOW] for the same reason, 'cause the fella who was writing it was also one of the Writers on the, Jeff Stilson. So I came on and did that; I loved that, I love Chris Rock, I think he's a very funny, nice young man. So almost at the same time, I got a call from Daniel, saying they're doing a new show, and I liked the premise right away, struck me as a good premise. To celebrate manhood. And to kind of protect yourself from this juggernaut of women's supremacy, although I am... it's a great joke. [INT: It's a wonderful joke, it's a guy's show.] And it's just a bunch of moronic guys swilling beer, and what it does it reinforces how important it is that women have something to say. [INT: It's also a good alternative to cheap jiggle shows, which is really what was going on before, at least this just tells the truth.] Two guys, peeing off the Hoover Dam, I thought that was a great idea.

INT: But when you got into the, this is just a little footnote, and it's really just something that interests me, so if you don't have experiences; but going into that environment, that cable environment, where they don't really understand the Director or what the function of a Director was. They understand what a Director is supposed to do in the moment, but a lot of the decisions that you always made are being made by a Producer or someone else. Not because they're out to get you, they just don't know. They don't know. Did you have any feelings or experiences in that arena or did they treat you with great respect? 

HG: It's almost, not ashamed to say it, because I'm an old guy, and I come in I have this history, they know about me, they all admire Letterman [David Letterman], so much of comedy has to do with kind of things that Dave brought to the business; I don't even think he understand how important he was in that. So when I came in it was almost uncomfortably kind of like, I'm a celebrity in a way, and I don't want to be a celebrity, I just want to join in on the fun, and the host, the two hosts, Jimmy Kimmel and Adam Carolla are two really nice guys. Smart guys, you can talk about, I mean we can have great conversations; they also know what makes young guys laugh, and so I worked with them, and I never, even though I did the pilot, I didn't really have the input that I would have had if it was a show that I created or worked on. So I came along, and I helped; I was more like a helper, so we did the pilot, I didn't even look at the sets. I came in the sets were done already. The staff was there. The one thing I did was I helped do the opening. We went to... I did a whole series of things, the juggies, the girls washing a car, and it was all blatantly just so... almost, it's funny but in disgustingly, what's the word, when you're using women badly. [INT: Oh sexist. But it's just burlesque, I mean it's nothing...] Yeah, and I understood that but a lot of my friends, in fact I didn't tell many people I was doing it, to tell you the truth. But I enjoyed working with these guys and Daniel [Daniel Kellison] is a wonderful man, and then so after I did the pilot, they asked me if I'd stay on and do the first year, and I said, "No, I have to go home, I have things to do at home." And I agreed to come out and do the street pieces, the remotes. And so for three years, I went out there for a couple weeks and did remotes, but we did, the Writer's were wonderful, wonderful Writers. We did a remote that still makes me laugh, we got, set up a guy outside of a important spot of Hollywood on the street, and with a big table and pads and papers and a sign saying "End Suffrage Now" and it was, a petition to get rid of the 19th Amendment, and women were coming up and we had people in line, "End suffrage now, come sign up, end suffrage now." And women were signing it and then the liberal gals, the ones who were smart said, "You're going to give up your right to vote? Is that what you want to do?" So we taped all this, it was very funny. Very funny. I thought that's just as funny as anything we would have done on the Letterman show [LATE SHOW WITH DAVID LETTERMAN]. So I would do the remotes and the remotes were kind of fun. [INT: I'm delighted to hear that, so it was a good experience?] Yeah. Smart people, maybe working under their abilities, but that was satisfying that niche that Comedy Central wanted.

INT: Could you just take a moment to tell me how you passed on the Directorship of the show [LATE SHOW WITH DAVID LETTERMAN] to Jerry Foley? What was the relationship? 

HG: Well, Jerry had come over from NBC with us as the TD. And I had with me for many years Pete Fatovich, who was my AD on the original JACK PAAR SHOW [THE JACK PAAR TONIGHT SHOW], so we worked together for, at that point, 35 years. And he had just kind of retired but came back and forth, and I recommended to Dave [David Letterman] that Pete do the show, 'cause Pete knew the show from the control room very well. Dave thought that Pete was too old. Although I'm older than Pete. And Dave he says, "Why are you leaving?" I said, "Do you know how-" He said, "I don't want to know how old you are, don't tell me that, I don't want to hear that." Anyway so Dave thought that Pete would be too old and so I recommended Jerry. Said "Jerry knows the show, he's smart. He'll do a good job." [INT: Seems to have acquired your timing. Unless they've been editing it, I can't tell. But it's that timing.] Yeah, it's a tough job for Jerry because he's not me in Dave's eye, that's the problem. So he has to, where I can get away with a lot of things 'cause you know, Dave would allow me to do things even though he didn't agree with them. I did all the openings for the show, and Dave likes to control every single aspect of it, but I would never let anybody see what the openings were until the day the opening played. [INT: You're talking about the generic opening, the fully structured ones.] Right. On every show I've ever worked on I've always insisted on doing that and also doing the graphics. Even though we have graphics people, and so I enjoy that probably more than almost anything else, creating these little movies that I would do, and have fun with that. Kind of get any feeling of technical or artistic achievement out of my system, because it was inappropriate for the show itself. The last thing you want to be is artistic on the Letterman show. [INT: But you were able to, the DAVID LETTERMAN SHOW is a particularly good example because it's covered so many years, it's whatever it is, 20 years. Where, to get a tight timing on something required possibly a five second roll in 1982 and-] Ten seconds. [INT: Ten second roll in 1982, and no time whatsoever-] I'm sorry, ten seconds in 1960, yeah. [INT: But when you started doing the show you were still in maybe one inch technology, but it was not exactly instant. Whereas in the by now, it's all just press a button and it happens. So to keep the comic timing up through that development in technology with no significant change is really quite remarkable.] Well the old days it was more like the fighter pilot; ten second roll cue, that's a long time. [INT: Right, but a ten second roll cue for a verbal joke, or even a five second roll cue or a one second roll cue, from a verbal joke from Dave it's got to be backed up with pictures-] So you anticipate in the up cut more than you do anything else. But that's okay, the up cut is much better than the weight; the weight will just dampen everything that follows. [INT: Well, watch the old SATURDAY NIGHT LIVES, the ones from '75. They're doing the best they can, but there's a moment of deadness in there, which has all been cleaned up and cut out.] Yeah, they spent a lot of time at Broadway Video. I never got over that fear of a pause. The pause. [INT: Dead air, the famous dead air.] Yeah. But even if it's a fraction of a second, it's like losing your breath or something. And Dave was very aware of that, anything where there was kind of like a hole in space. So my last actual experience with Dave was going out to the Winter Olympics...